Hatidža and Zumreta

Hatidža b. 1948, Prijedor (Miljakovci) b. 1948 and her daughter Zumreta b. 1967, Prijedor. Interview by Adela. Hatidža’s husband, Mirzet, and Ana are also present.

Adela Sajdel Cerić: Okay. Shall we begin? So, I am Adela Sajdel and I will conduct this interview with Hatidža Beširević. Hatidža, would you introduce yourself? Your name, where you were born, and how old you are.

Hatidža Beširević: I am Hatidža Beširević, born in Prijedor in 1948, on May 5.

ASC: Okay, so now we’ll…

Ana Croegaert: And Zumreta? No?

HB: Say it, why not, tell it.

Zumreta Subašić: My name is Zumreta Subašić. I was born in Prijedor in 1967, I will soon be 46 years old.

AC: I am Ana Croegaert, an American.

HB: That’s right. Okay, okay. We are Bosnian and American.

ASC: Okay, Ana has prepared a few questions, so we’ll go over them one by one. Tidža, when did you first learn how to make coffee, to brew coffee, how old were you?

HB: Well, I…

ZS: Well how old were you?

HB: Well, I don’t know. I was little.

ASC: Was it before you started school?

HB: Well, I was eight-nine years.

ZS: Eight, that’s …

ASC: Do you know where you were?

HB: In Miljakovci.

ASC: At your home, right?

HB: Right, in Miljakovci, at my home. Near Prijedor.

ASC: Was it your mom who taught you or other relatives?

HB: My mom.

ASC: Yes. And were you drinking it then or just learning how to brew it?

HB: Learning how to brew it, but afterwards I loved to drink it. They begin complaining there’s a shortage of coffee, and then I hide some so I can have it. So I can brew some when my girl friends come by for coffee, for ...

ASC: And what did it taste like?

HB: Like heaven.

ASC: Did it?

HB: Like heaven.

ASC: Did you ever have something to eat along with drinking your coffee, or did you just drink coffee?

HB: Since [we] lived in a village and had fruit, it was home-made, more or less everything was home-made?

ASC: And that’s what you had?

HB: Yep, yep, we sure did. We’d have some packaged cookies sometimes, say that Turkish delight candy and fruit, like I sad, things like that.

ASC: So when you started making coffee, did you do it often, or how was it, sometimes?

HB: Well, more often when you get tired and coffee hits the spot.

ASC: Okay.

HB: To get some rest.

AC: Mmmmm.

ASC: With you… (inaudible).

HB: We knew how to relish it, sorry.

AC: No!

ZS: Let her laugh. When did I brew my first coffee? When I was 18 when I started university. And that was really difficult to do. Because…

HB: nuts…

ZS: First, I didn’t know which… (snaps fingers)

HB: Sorry, sorry.

AC: No, that’s okay.

ZS: I didn’t know which type of coffee was for me. With milk, without milk, stronger, weaker, with sugar, without, so my roommate who shared the apartment with me would test it. That was a big deal, a big project. And when I started making it, it took about a year until I started the other, started brewing it for others.

HB: You were a young girl then.

ZS: Nineteen, thereabout…

ASC: So did you enjoy how that taste of coffee, or?

ZS: I… No, I didn’t, and then I decided my favorite was black, no sugar, stronger. And that had to be one small cup, made to measure, sufficient. And the change took place when I went to Sweden after seven years, then I started to take it white, with milk, with sugar, and weaker.

ASC: Weaker?

ZS: And now I drink Nes Café, like, without caffeine. That one, that one’s the best for me. Also café latte.

ASC: And in your case, Tidža, do you remember when you first got your first coffee pot and cup set, or did you go and buy yourself a coffee pot and a cup?

HB: My mom had those. Cups, small individual coffee pots, big coffee pots, medium.

ASC: Did she give you those?

HB: Ah, my mom kept those. Mom kept those and then, when I got married, of course I bought some for myself.

ASC: Okay. So no one gave you your first cups and coffee pot, you bought them for yourself.

HB: No, no one gave me any.

ASC: And when you were a little girl, back then there were no, of course, no electric…

HB: No, we had wood stoves.

ASC: No, no that’s not what I’m asking you, but…

HB: Aha, the dishes!

ASC: No, grinders.

HB: Of course! No, no, no.

ASC: Those were manual…

HB: Manually, manually.

ASC: M-hm. So do you think there’s a difference between coffee that’s…

HB: It’s nicer when it’s ground…

ASC: …when it’s ground…

HB: …manually.

ASC: Okay, is it nicer because you get tired grinding it so you appreciate it more, or?

HB: No, no, it’s nicer, I have one here, so I started grinding again?

ASC: You’re grinding here again?

HB: Right. Mizret, let me show her that…

AC: Can I take pictures?

HB or ZS: But I’m not photogenic…

AC: Oooooh, perfect! Is it okay if I take a picture?

HB: Okay. Check this out!

AC: These are amazing. They don’t…

ASC: Mirzet made it, Hatidža’s husband.

AC: You made it?

HB: Yeah! Mirzet, yeah!

AC: Wow!

HB: Rust-free, say it.

ZS: (quietly) Rust-free. Say it.

ASC: I’m afraid I don’t know how to translate “rosfrajt”. (Rust-free.)

(indecipherable, several voices at the same time)

ZS: Because coffee is the most important thing for Bosnians.

AC: One more, Hatidža, one…

AC: Can I…Wow.

HB: That’s hand-made.

ASC: All right. While Ana is looking over this grinder, let me ask you, Tidža, where did you use to buy coffee beans? Is that something you used to buy?

HB: We used to go to Čela to buy some.

ASC: So…

HB: A village, it was called Čela.

ASC: A shop in Čela, right?

HB: A shop, that’s right. Right, a shop.

ASC: And mostly you bought coffee beans, and then at home…

HB: Yep, raw coffee, and then we’d roast it.

ASC: Roast it, for sure, that’s…

ZS: And there were two methods of roasting.

HB: Dolaf [SŽ: a special metal pot for coffee roasting, held over an open fire, outside the house of course], first in dolaf, you light a fire and roast the coffee. So you don’t fill the house with smoke. And then later you roast it in an electric oven on a baking sheet.

ASC: Yes. Yes.

HB: In an electric stove.

ASC: And during the war, where did you buy coffee then?

HB: Ooooh! Also in the shop, coffee was very scarce, you’d roast barley, mix barley and coffee. Just a bit, just a bit of coffee, mostly it was barley.

ASC: Did you have a favorite special coffee, some company that…

HB: Minas.

ASC: Minas?

HB: Minas, the most… Brazil, and Minas.

ASC: Okay.

HB: Brazilian and Minas.

AC: Brazil and Minas are your favorite brands, okay.

HB: Right, right.

ASC: How do you take your coffee? To… a bit of milk, with cream?

HB: I take it black now. I used to take it with cream, with milk, and now black.

ASC: Sugar?

HB: A little bit. A tiny bit.

ASC: When you worked before the war, did you drink coffee at work, with your coworkers?

HB: We did, with the workers, right, we had a cafeteria downstairs, and we were brewing and drinking coffee, all of us.

ASC: Did you have breakfast like that, all together?

HB: Right, we’d have breakfast, and around 11 a break, I mean when you get to work at 7, coffee, and later at 10, coffee again, and then when they go home, no coffee, twice.

ASC: Okay. So what would you talk about, what would you during…

HB: Well, everyone has their own story.

ASC: And when you were spending time together, did you talk about…?

HB: Well, everyone has their story, let’s say, of course we spent time together, we were very very kind, we were like a family, my company was really like a family.

ASC: And now let’s go back to you, Zumreta. So, how did you brew coffee, did you like to use this traditional grinder or an electric grinder?

ZS: Since the beginning I always used a hand grinder, since an electric grinder…

HB: Burns the coffee.

ZS: Yes, it changes the taste and it makes it stronger. Then you have to watch it. If it hasn’t been over-roasted, then you can use either kind of a grinder. And if it’s been roasted for a somewhat longer time, then it’s best to use a hand grinder. So I also prioritize the hand grinder first.

ASC: Well then… And do you have a specific brand of coffee that you like to drink, is it Minas for you as well, or do you have no preference?

ZS: I have no preference. I prefer no specific brand.

ASC: You mentioned earlier that you didn’t really like to drink coffee before the war, that you thought it was too expensive, would you tell us something…

ZS: No, no I didn’t think… I…

HB: Tell the truth!

ZS: Well, no, that’s not the truth, but, at the time when I was growing up, there was crisis in Bosnia as far as coffee…

HB: Yep.

ZS: And the source was Italy. And, um, it cost a lot of money to get to obtain coffee. And then, most of parents prioritized coffee over other things. And that coffee was also a way of social, you know, interaction, social, rest, when it’s the time for it, when it’s time for work, to drop everything, that’s coffee time. So, in Bosnia, coffee was a big symbol for a lot of things. So when I was a child, I couldn’t understand that something I didn’t think tasted nice, something my mom let me taste, and it didn’t taste like anything special, that people would spend so much money on it and sacrifice for it, so I’d always say I wouldn’t drink coffee. And why did I start drinking coffee? When I became a university student, social life was all about coffee, if you wanted to approach someone you didn’t know, to introduce yourself, the first thing you asked was “Would you join me for coffee?” And the other thing was cigarettes. They went together. Since I didn’t smoke or drink then, I felt anti-social. Anti-social. No, that was temporary.

ASC: She wasn’t a part of the crowd.

ZS: That’s how it would turn out. Then I decided to buy some coffee. That was difficult. What, how? Ten… A hundred grams. That was the first package and training.

ASC: Tell me if you had someone, a friend or a family member with whom you enjoyed drinking coffee the most.

ZS: I did. I liked to drink it with our neighbor across the hall the best. We had coffee at 5.

HB: With Bisera?

ZS: Aha.

HB: Right.

ZS: That was really something special, at five, after work…

ASC: So what did you talk about the most?

HB: School…

ZS: There were no special conversations, but, um, it was more about the time, it was just… Although those people were older, but there was some special magic.

ASC: Hatidža for you, is there someone special with whom you drink coffee, is it your husband Mizret or?

HB: Well, the same thing Zumreta said, myself and Mizret the most, and also with that neighbor, we really spent a lot of time together, it was such a nice neighborhood, and as she said, one day at their place, one day at our place.

ASC: So what did you guys talk about, what did you discuss, your life, about what happened?

HB: About life, for sure, and how we’ll raise the children, how will provide them with an education so they can move forward, to be very educated, not to be unschooled like we were, because we didn’t have the right conditions, back when we were growing up there really were no right conditions, really, especially for girls, there really were no right conditions. There were more children back then, eight, ten, and now it’s one or two. When I was a young girl, as Zumreta would say, I said that if I ever have a family, children of my own, I’ll do my best to protect them, to keep them from too much labor, from hardship, that I’ll do my best to make their life as easy as possible, make it enjoyable…

ASC: And that, during those conversations, would you find some…

HB: And that neighbor also, for example, she had two children, I had two children, we really connected mostly through our children, school, the most… we wanted so much for our children to get good education.

ASC: So, after those, like, conversations, did you feel better…

HB: Through work, things like that…

ASC: Was it easier for you after sharing…

HB: Absolutely, how couldn’t have it been? When you can tell someone, when you have someone to sit down with and talk with and they don’t contradict you, but accept what you’re saying, when they say that it’s really great to raise the children, to teach them culture, so they’re not on the street.

ASC: Tell me, Tidža, do you ever drink coffee by yourself, do you ever take a moment to rest like that?

HB: I never used too, never, ever, I never used to sit by myself to have coffee.

ASC: You like having company?

HB: I always like having company, but nowadays there’s less and less of it, now I have coffee by myself sometimes. Now that I’m elderly.

ASC: Is there a place where you liked drinking coffee the most? Was it in your house or somewhere in the garden?

HB: Well, my living room when I was in the city, and when we went to our village, we liked the yard. We’d sit there, and I have to say lot of us would gather, from the neighborhood, we’d gather around 5-6 o’clock to rest up a lit, to enjoy our coffee, when, you know, when sun begins to set everyone goes back to their work.

ASC: You used to, did you use to go to a coffee shop and sit there, did you use to get together with friends?

HB: Not much, not much.

ASC: Mostly at home?

HB: Mostly at home.

ASC: Zumreta, did you go to coffee shops or did you also mostly get together with friends…?

HB: I go nowadays, Adela, more often.

AC: Okay, so, you’re good?

ASC: Yeah, I’m gonna wrap up pretty soon.

AC: I want to talk to Mirzet more about…

ASC: Oh, he’ll give you a story.

AC: Okay.

ZS: I both frequented the coffee shops and had coffee at home, a coffee shop had its charm, um, also at a certain time of day.

Mirzet Beširević: What will she have, is she done with the recording?

ZS: Also at a certain time of day, um, when it was customary to go to a coffee shop, you know, the morning coffee and the afternoon coffee. I never liked to drink coffee by myself, now I do, it’s not like it used to be, for the sake of socializing, for pleasure, now it’s mostly the need for caffeine. When the head signals, um, that it needs caffeine, then it happens quickly. Just gulp it down…

ASC: You don’t relish it?

ZS: No! When it’s a social activity, then there’s chatting, you know, relaxation, you’re not thinking, depending on who you’re drinking coffee with. Coffee is special.

ASC: Tidža, did you bring a coffee put with you to America?

HB: No. I bought one here in America.

ASC: And if you had a choice, would you have brought your coffee pot with you?

HB: I was robbed of everything I packed to bring. And if I could have brought it, I surely would have.

ASC: And who would you give it to? If you were to give it to someone, now?

HB: Well to one of my children, my daughter, or my son.

ASC: Who did you teach how to brew coffee?

HB: My daughter.

ZS: You didn’t teach me.

HB: I didn’t, well okay I did, I still showed you

ZS: You taught Alena.

HB: Ah, sorry, my neighbor. I taught Alena all about coffee.

ZS: How to drink it and brew it.

HB: And brew it. I taught her, really, god rest her soul, to cook, to wash, all you can think of. All of it! And she really loved me, she always loved me and called me her aunt, although I wasn’t her aunt. But she called me her aunt.

ASC: So you know her, you know well that you taught her.

HB: I know that for sure.

ASC: What would you say, do you prefer to drink Bosnian coffee or do you like this express American coffee?

HB: I still prefer Bosnian coffee.

ASC: Bosnian the most.

HB: The most, and I stand by that.

ASC: Tell me now about one memory that, a memory that has to do with coffee and coffee consumption. Was is with a group of people?

HB: For example, of course I had lots of company since I had an older sister, the two of us drank coffee and spent time together a lot, she’d go to the garden, and I’m at home, I’d clean the house, make dinner, brew some coffee, I’d say, “Let’s have some coffee, you’re tired now,” let’s say. And she’d say, ‘Where did you find the coffee?” “Don’t worry, I hid some away for the two us.” Because, as they say, we were in the midst of a crisis, it was really difficult to obtain any, it was really, really difficult. Then, of course, gradually each year was better and easier, so naturally we were more glad and at ease and as we got older, life got better. As a contrast to our childhood, I mean, we really had a difficult childhood. But we grew up and things improved and life was nice.

ASC: Do you have any other stories about you and Mirzet drinking coffee together, what do you talk about?

HB: And then when I, I just wanted to say this one thing, and when, my mom always used to say, “What will you do when you get married, how will you manage, you won’t be drinking coffee!” “Well,” I says, “Maybe people will still be drinking coffee then!” However, when I got married, I really got a father-in-law who loved drinking coffee, he had this big fat cup and whenever I come home, he calls, “Tidza, shall we have a cup?” “For sure, grandpa, for sure.” So I really, when I got married, freely drank coffee. And it was really nice because I had a really good father-in-law, he never said any harsh words to me, never. So I had a good time. And myself and Mizret, naturally, when it’s just the two of us, you’re discussing how to, how to advance, how to live better, how to provide security for the children…. Grandchildren, daughters-in-law, sons-in-law to sit down, discuss, so our children…

ASC: How many times a day do you and Mizret drink coffee?

HB: We used to drink a lot, I don’t even know how many times, and now we drink in the morning and afternoon. Two morning cups.

ASC: And when you have guests?

HB: Well, it’s more… We’ll have some, but less than before. Less, much less. The old age is here. I swear to God, we’re getting old, Adela. Yep. We’re getting old, and so.

ASC: Thank you, Tidža. Zumreta…

HB: Thank you too.

ASC: …let us ask you, do you have a place where you liked drinking coffee the most? Enjoy the coffee hour?

HB: You liked to drink coffee with grandma Muhiba.

ZS: I didn’t have, there wasn’t a special place.

HB: Zumreta, you know you liked to have coffee with grandma.

ZS: No, a place, not with whom.

HB: A place, a place, sorry.

ZS: Um, there wasn’t a special place.

ASC: So, mostly at home for you.

ZS: Mostly. Um, I did. If it’s about going out, um, I liked to go to a coffee shop, afternoons at that, because that’s where a certain circle of friends would gather at the same time and that was a short stop, about a half an hour, just enough for coffee. Um, that’s where I liked to go.

ASC: Tell me, now, before we started this interview, you said that now you drink, that you don’t drink Bosnian coffee any more.

ZS: I don’t drink Bosnian coffee any more, I drink Bosnian coffee only when I have to, when I visit someone and I have no choice to, um…

ASC: And why is that?

ZS: Because, um, it’s not… Now I’m confusing my languages. Because I feel, um, I don’t think it’s that healthy for the stomach.

ASC: That it’s strong?

ZS: That it’s strong and since the grounds on the bottom are so thick, and it’s not recommended to drink as much of it as we used to. Another reason is too much caffeine, since people drink it late, then it disturbs, um, sleep, so that’s not so great either, so I chose, um, Nes café with, without caffeine, I can have it when I need to, and I don’t feel any difference in my sleep and, you know, that I can’t fall asleep, or that my stomach reacts if I have it before a meal or after a meal.

ASC: Do you have a memory concerning coffee, the consumption of it, something you could share with us?

ZS: As far as memory, I have a lot of memories of other drinking coffee, not my own experience, but an experience of other people. What a tradition that was and very important and not like today. Today it’s all about speed, quick, um, the preparation itself isn’t what it used to be. It used to be like some kind of a ritual.

HB: People relished their coffee time.

ZS: The coffee pot had to be a special one, for each person, which was hard for me to understand, a pot is a pot, it looks the same on the outside, the shape and the name is the same, but when you’re listening to people say, “This pot makes good coffee,” this one makes good coffee, how can there be a difference, however there was one. Um, when I was testing them myself, um, there’s a difference.

ASC: So, every pot tastes different.

ZS: Right.

ASC: Or makes the coffee taste different.

ZS: The taste and then also the preparation. Um, also, that’s an experience as well, who makes coffee which way, how much coffee is there in the pot, you know, warming it, how much water do they pour, how long do they wait for the water to raise the froth just before it boils over. What does that mean? And then you have to add more water, it’s really a process. And that process, that process, for those who love coffee, is necessary. And that coffee is really tasty and nice. Who…

ASC: So, the more care, the tastier.

ZS: Right. Who isn’t an expert, who isn’t an expert, then it’s easier, regardless of what a pot looks like, you just pour the water, stir, and that’s it. And there’s a difference. Just like there’s a difference between today’s appliances, so there’s a difference in an ordinary pot and water and… Ground coffee.

ASC: So what could you say concerning that Bosnian tradition of ours and coffee, how much did it change? You touched upon that topic.

ZS: A lot. Even twenty years later, I often miss that tradition. That tradition had that special magic, you know, it really had that special something. And people carried themselves differently, they’d stop working, and everything, there was always time for that coffee. Whereas today, people don’t connect over coffee the way they did before. Sure, there’s a social aspect if there’s a meeting at work, this and that, there is, but it doesn’t have the warmth, the sentiment it used to have. It’s more of a habit than a tradition.

ASC: Thank you for your time, I think you really shared some very beautiful memories of times past.

HB: Thank you two a lot as well.

ZS: Thank you, Adela, and Ana.